This Week in Fiction

Sheila Heti on the Mystery of Lust

希拉·赫蒂谈欲望之谜
The author discusses her story “Earthly Delights.”
作者谈论她的短篇小说《人间乐事》。
A photo of Sheila Heti in purple. The background has some cursive writing on a mint background.
Illustration by The New Yorker; Source photograph by Luis Mora

The protagonist of this week’s story, “Earthly Delights,” realizes, at the age of fifteen, that there’s a difference between wanting to be someone’s girlfriend and actually being that person’s girlfriend. Did you set out to explore that gulf in the story?

本周小说《人间乐事》的主人公在十五岁时意识到,想做某人的女朋友和真正成为那个人的女朋友是两回事。你写这个故事时,是有意去探索这种落差吗?

No, the story was actually written for a magazine that commissioned me to write a piece for them about lust. They were doing a series on the seven deadly sins. I figured, since they wanted me to write a story about lust, they probably wanted a lot of sex in it, so I put in as much as I thought would fit the story. The editor replied with a very prim and terse e-mail, saying they were a “family publication” and were not interested in running the story as I had submitted it. I looked up the magazine—it turns out they were a Catholic publication, their board full of vicars and priests! You’d think they might have mentioned this in the e-mail they initially sent me. Or at least said they didn’t want me to depict sex in a story about lust.

不是的,这篇小说其实是应一家杂志的约稿写的,他们想让我写一篇关于欲望的文章。他们当时在做关于七宗罪的系列。我想,既然他们要我写一个关于欲望的故事,大概希望里面有很多性描写,所以我就尽可能多地写了进去,觉得这样才贴合主题。编辑回了一封非常古板简短的邮件,说他们是“家庭刊物”,无意按我提交的版本发表。我查了一下那本杂志——原来是一家天主教刊物,编委会里全是牧师和神父!他们最初给我发邮件时,好歹该提一句吧。或者至少说明,他们不希望我在一篇关于欲望的故事里描写性。

Also, I think I maybe misread their e-mail and they actually wanted an essay.

另外,我可能也看错了他们的邮件,他们其实想要的可能是一篇散文。

Some years later, at a New Year’s Eve party, the protagonist meets a man named Pier, with whom she feels an immediate connection—and it’s a connection that appears to be mutual—but nothing happens between them. In this case, her yearning for him seems as much carnal as romantic. How important was it to try to capture the corporeal quality of her desire?

几年后的一个跨年夜派对上,主人公遇到了一个叫皮尔(Pier)的男人,她立刻感到一种联结——而且似乎是双向的——但他们之间什么也没发生。在这个情境中,她对他的渴望似乎既是肉体的,也是浪漫的。捕捉她欲望中那种身体性的质感,对你来说有多重要?

It was important! I think her desire for him is primarily physical, but bodies are mysterious; there’s a mystery in who we are attracted to, almost as much as there’s a mystery in why we love who we love. This morning, I was listening to a voice note a friend had left me last night, about how she was looking at this guy’s pictures on a dating app, and how much she loved looking at his face, and she said that if she liked looking at someone’s face for a long time she felt pretty sure she could have sex with him. That’s mysterious, too: why did she like his face, and not the hundreds of other ones? But, yes, of course, if you want to have sex with someone, the desire is at least somewhat a physical yearning. It’s funny to me that bodies are really who we are, and not just containers for who we are. So wanting someone’s body close is wanting them close.

很重要!我觉得她对他的欲望主要是身体层面的,但身体是神秘的;我们被谁吸引,这本身就是一个谜,几乎和我们为什么会爱上某个人一样神秘。今天早上,我听了一个朋友昨晚发给我的语音留言,她说她在一个约会软件上翻看一个男人的照片,她太喜欢看他的脸了,她说,如果她能长时间盯着一个人的脸看,她就基本确定自己可以和他上床。这也很神秘:为什么她喜欢他的脸,而不是其他成百上千张脸?不过,当然,如果你想和一个人上床,那种欲望至少有一部分是身体上的渴望。我觉得很有意思的一点是,身体其实就是我们自身,而不仅仅是装载我们的容器。所以,渴望一个人的身体靠近,就是渴望那个人靠近。

Eventually, the protagonist meets a man named Roy, with whom everything just feels right, and she spends the rest of her life with him. The story doesn’t delve into that happy relationship. Why did you want to make the description of it so fleeting?

最终,主人公遇到了一个叫罗伊(Roy)的男人,和他在一起一切都感觉恰到好处,她和他共度了余生。故事并没有深入描写那段幸福的关系。你为什么把对它的描述写得如此轻描淡写?

Well, I was trying to write a story about the onset of lust. The mystery of love and even lust in a long-term relationship is a completely different mystery than the mystery of a new and sudden lust, and deserves its own story. I didn’t want her lust to come out of any dissatisfaction in her long-term relationship, or even for any reason at all. It was a singular thing that had dropped into her life, seemingly from out of nowhere. The relationship also prevents her from acting on it, so I needed it in the story. I didn’t want the story to be a story of pursuit. I wanted to write about sublimation of lust. I think sublimation is one of the most interesting and most important things in life, at least if you’re trying to make art. To force an energy, that wants to go in one direction, into a completely other direction—I don’t know what life would be without this power.

嗯,我想写的是一个关于欲望初生的故事。长期关系中的爱、甚至欲望,其神秘之处,与一种突如其来的崭新欲望的神秘之处,是完全不同的,它值得拥有自己的故事。我不想让她的欲望源于她长期关系中的任何不满足,甚至不想让它有任何缘由。它就是一个独立的东西,仿佛从天而降,落入了她的生活。那段关系也阻止了她将欲望付诸行动,所以我在故事里需要它。我不想把这个故事写成一个追逐的故事。我想写的是欲望的升华。我觉得升华是生命中最有趣、也最重要的事情之一,至少如果你想从事艺术创作的话。把一股想要朝一个方向去的能量,强行扭转到完全不同的方向——如果没有这种力量,我不知道生活会变成什么样。

As we’re reading the story, we—and the protagonist—suddenly find that the setting has switched from Earth to Heaven and she’s now dead. It’s a surprise to the reader, but was it a decision you made before you started writing the story?

当我们读到故事时,我们——和主人公——突然发现场景从人间切换到了天堂,而她已经死了。这对读者来说是个意外,但这是你在动笔之前就做好的决定吗?

It wasn’t. I think I just got bored of writing about her life on Earth, or didn’t have anything left to say about it. I was surprised when I wrote that line about God and the marble. I didn’t expect it, either.

不是的。我想我只是写她在人间的生活写腻了,或者关于那部分已经没什么可说的了。我写到上帝和大理石那句时,自己也很惊讶。我也没想到会那样写。

Soon afterward, Pier arrives in Heaven, too. Finally, the relationship is consummated. Did you have different scenarios in mind for how things might go? Or did you want any possible complications to arise because of the “pretty incredible” nature of this first encounter?

不久之后,皮尔也来到了天堂。最终,这段关系得以圆满。你当时有没有设想过事情会如何发展的不同版本?还是说,你希望任何可能的复杂状况,都源于这第一次相遇“美妙得不可思议”的本质?

I mean, I wrote the story pretty quickly (I always write quickly—I taught myself to write to the beat of a fast metronome), so I guess it was just intuitive: the sex would be good, because they were in Heaven. Complications are for Earth, not Heaven. And Heaven is Heaven, but it’s also a fantasy, and I think the point of fantasy is that it doesn’t have the complications of life.

我的意思是,我写这个故事写得很快(我向来写得快——我训练自己跟着一个快速节拍器的节奏写作),所以我想那只是凭直觉:性爱会很美好,因为他们在天堂。复杂状况是属于人间的,不属于天堂。天堂是天堂,但它也是一种幻想,我认为幻想的意义就在于它没有生活中的那些复杂状况。

On Earth, the possibility of romance seems to go hand in hand with talk of it with friends. In Heaven, the only third parties appear to be a silent tidier-upper and God. What’s lost when there’s no one to gossip with? And is God any help?

在人间,恋情的可能性似乎总是与和朋友谈论它相伴而行。在天堂,唯一的第三方似乎是一个沉默的清洁工和上帝。当没有人可以闲聊八卦时,会失去什么?上帝能帮上忙吗?

I think half the fun of anything in life is talking about it with one’s friends, so what’s lost is maybe half of the fun. God isn’t really a friend, or at least not a friend like a friend is a friend, because God has different experiences than a person, if God has experiences at all. The person who it’s fun to gossip with is the one who’s lived similar things as you, and, like you, is also trying to understand everything. It’s not fun to gossip with someone who’s not trying to understand anything, who doesn’t want to figure out everyone’s personality. I guess what’s lost is the fun game of trying to figure things out.

我觉得生活中任何事情的一半乐趣都在于和朋友们谈论它,所以失去的或许就是那一半乐趣。上帝算不上真正的朋友,或者至少不是朋友意义上的朋友,因为上帝的经历与人不同,如果上帝真有经历的话。适合一起聊八卦的人,是那些经历过和你类似事情的人,并且和你一样,也在努力理解一切。和一个不想理解任何事、不想琢磨每个人性格的人聊八卦,是没意思的。我想,失去的,就是那种试图把事情弄明白的有趣游戏。

Last year, we ran your story “The St. Alwynn Girls at Sea,” about a girls’ school that had taken to the high seas at a time of war. You’ve now expanded this into a novel, which will be published by F.S.G. next April. Were you expecting to do this when you first started work on the story? Does “Earthly Delights,” with its tracing of a teen-age girl’s mind, feel like a companion piece in any way to the novel?

去年,我们刊登了你的小说《圣阿尔温女孩出海记》,讲的是一个女子学校在战时出海远航的故事。你现在已经把它扩展成了一部长篇小说,将于明年四月由F.S.G.出版社出版。你刚开始写那个短篇时,就预料到会这样吗?《人间乐事》追溯了一个少女的心路历程,你觉得它在任何方面可以算是那部长篇的姊妹篇吗?

I didn’t think it was going to be a novel when I sent you the story. Maybe it was in my mind a little bit. I can’t remember. Anyway, it turned out there was more to the story, or I decided to make more of it. I’m not sure if “Earthly Delights” connects to that story in the way you suggest—because both contain teen-age experiences. However, I do think they’re connected, in that they seem to be coming from a new impulse in me, which is to use my imagination more and step away from the facts of my real life. I feel very free these days, in my writing. I don’t know how long it will last, but since abandoning (for now, anyway) my A.I. book (you published my story “According to Alice,” which was part of that project), and since publishing my book “Alphabetical Diaries” something has changed. Both of those books, which were very precise editing projects, didn’t allow me to write anything new—or, in the case of the A.I. book, anything at all. It feels like I was bottled up for years and years. So it’s been a nice time, lately, writing-wise. I hope it lasts forever. ♦

我把那个短篇发给你的时候,没想过它会成为一部长篇。也许潜意识里有一点点。我记不清了。总之,后来发现这个故事还有更多可写的,或者是我决定把它扩展得更丰富。我不确定《人间乐事》是否像你暗示的那样,与那篇小说有关联——因为它们都包含了青春期的经历。不过,我确实认为它们是相通的,因为它们似乎都源自我内心的一种新冲动,那就是更多地运用我的想象力,远离我真实生活中的事实。这些日子,我在写作中感到非常自由。我不知道这种感觉能持续多久,但自从(至少暂时)放弃了我的那本人工智能之书(你刊登过我的小说《据爱丽丝说》,那是那个项目的一部分),以及出版了我的书《字母日记》之后,有些东西变了。那两本书都是非常精确的编辑项目,不允许我写任何新东西——就人工智能那本书而言,是根本不允许我写任何东西。感觉就像我被封存了很多很多年。所以,最近这段时间,在写作方面,是一段很美好的时光。我希望它能永远持续下去。 ♦

2 free previews left — register to get 30 translations a month