Q. & A.

How the Dangerous Rise in Anti-Immigration Politics Went Mainstream

反移民政治的危險崛起,何以成為主流
Violent unrest after a stabbing in Northern Ireland showed the extent to which the far right has taken hold in the U.K., as well as in Europe and the U.S.
北愛爾蘭一起持刀傷人事件後爆發的暴力騷亂,顯示極右翼在英國、歐洲乃至美國已紮根多深。
A man walks down a street lined with burned buildings and cars.
Photograph by Peter Morrison / AP

Earlier this week, a Sudanese man who was seeking asylum in the U.K. was arrested in Belfast for attempted murder, after allegedly stabbing someone in the street. Following this attack, violence broke out across the Northern Irish city, with cars being lit on fire and immigrants being chased from homes that had been set ablaze. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Keir Starmer, has called for calm, but several far-right personalities in Great Britain and the United States—including Elon Musk—have used the attack to foment hatred against immigrants.

本週早些時候,一名在英國尋求庇護的蘇丹男子在貝爾法斯特被捕,罪名是謀殺未遂;他涉嫌在街頭刺傷他人。襲擊發生後,這座北愛爾蘭城市多處爆發暴力事件:汽車被點燃,移民被人從遭縱火的住所中驅趕出來。英國首相施紀賢(Keir Starmer)呼籲保持冷靜,但英美兩國多位極右翼人物——包括伊隆·馬斯克(Elon Musk)——卻利用這起襲擊煽動對移民的仇恨。

I recently spoke by phone with Daniel Trilling, the author of the new book “If We Tolerate This: How the British Establishment Made the Far Right Acceptable,” to talk about the rise of far-right and anti-immigrant politics in the U.K. and around the world. During our conversation, which has been edited for length and clarity, we discussed why the United Kingdom has become a symbol of global reactionary politics, why some British élites have stopped pushing back against far-right narratives about multi-ethnic societies, and whether the media in the U.K. is stoking hatred or merely responding to it.

我最近與丹尼爾·特里林(Daniel Trilling)通了電話,他是新書《若我們容忍至此:英國建制派如何讓極右翼變得可接受》(If We Tolerate This: How the British Establishment Made the Far Right Acceptable)的作者,我們談論了極右翼與反移民政治在英國及全球的崛起。我們的對話經過編輯,以確保篇幅與清晰度,討論了為何英國已成為全球反動政治的象徵,為何部分英國菁英不再反駁極右翼關於多族裔社會的敘事,以及英國媒體究竟是在煽動仇恨,抑或僅僅是在回應仇恨。

When you look at the recent riots in Belfast, do you consider them as something specific to the United Kingdom, or are they part of a larger anti-immigration trend we are seeing internationally?

當你審視貝爾法斯特最近的騷亂,你認為這是英國特有的現象,還是我們在國際上看到的、更廣泛的反移民趨勢的一部分?

I think very often that the specific incidents themselves are local, and related to a national issue, or even something to do with the city or the region that they take place in. What’s changed over the last five to ten years is that the international dimension has become much more significant. Particularly when there is video footage, an event in one country will be taken up by international far-right influencers and networks. And then that feeds far-right narratives and ideas in other countries, but also feeds back into the country where the narrative originated. Certainly that’s the case for the U.K.

我認為,很多時候,具體事件本身是地方性的,與某個全國性議題相關,甚至只關乎事件發生的城市或地區。過去五到十年間,真正改變的是國際層面的影響力變得遠比以往重大。尤其當有影片畫面時,一個國家的事件會被國際上的極右翼意見領袖和網絡所利用。這繼而滋養了其他國家的極右翼敘事和觀念,同時也反饋回敘事發源的國家。英國的情況無疑正是如此。

You have to see this rioting as the latest in a string of similar events that have been happening in the U.K., especially in the past two years, and there’s a kind of momentum to them. What happened this week is obviously off the back of there being disturbances in other parts of the U.K. after footage of the murder of Henry Nowak was made public. Nowak was an eighteen-year-old man who was stabbed to death in Southampton, toward the end of last year. And his murderer lied to police who arrived on the scene, and claimed that he, the murderer, had been the victim of a racist attack. So the police initially handcuffed Henry Nowak as he lay dying, and were slow to recognize that he had actually been stabbed. Nowak was white, and his killer was of a Sikh, South Asian background. So that prompted protests and disturbances in Southampton, and a huge, angry reaction from the far right, both within Britain and internationally.

你必須將這次騷亂視為英國一系列類似事件的最新一起,尤其在過去兩年,這些事件形成了一種動能。本週的事件,顯然是緊接在英國其他地區發生騷亂之後;那些騷亂源於亨利·諾瓦克(Henry Nowak)謀殺案的影片被公開。諾瓦克是一名十八歲青年,去年底在南安普敦被人刺死。兇手對抵達現場的警察撒謊,聲稱自己——也就是兇手本人——是一場種族主義攻擊的受害者。因此,警方最初在諾瓦克垂死之際將他上了手銬,且遲遲未能意識到他其實是被刺殺的。諾瓦克是白人,而殺害他的人是南亞裔錫克教徒背景。此事在南安普敦引發了抗議和騷亂,以及來自英國國內外極右翼的巨大憤怒反應。

We also had a large far-right march in central London, the so-called Unite the Kingdom Rally, which happened in May. And shortly before that, local elections in which the far-right party Reform U.K. did very well. So there’s this constant drumbeat of events allowing right-wing forces in the U.K. to gain momentum, and feeding the appetites of the far right internationally. And the U.K. seems to play this quite symbolic role, particularly for far-right actors in the U.S. Their main trick is to link any unwelcome incident or social development to mass migration, and they like to hold Britain up as a kind of cautionary tale.

我們還在倫敦市中心經歷了一場大規模的極右翼遊行,即所謂的「團結王國集會」,發生在五月。而在此之前不久的地方選舉中,極右翼政黨英國改革黨(Reform U.K.)表現非常出色。所以,這些事件持續不斷地敲打著鼓點,讓英國的右翼勢力得以積蓄動能,並滿足了國際上極右翼的胃口。而英國似乎扮演著一個相當具有象徵意義的角色,特別是對美國的極右翼行動者而言。他們的主要伎倆,就是將任何不受歡迎的事件或社會發展與大規模移民聯繫起來,而且他們喜歡把英國當作一個警世故事來宣揚。

Do you have a theory for why that is? I’ve noticed that, too. It’s funny, because the nonwhite population in the United States is more than twice as large as it is in the U.K., in percentage terms.

你對此有什麼理論解釋嗎?我也注意到了這點。這很有趣,因為按百分比計算,美國的非白人族裔人口是英國的兩倍多。

Yes, and despite current events, Britain is a pretty successful multi-ethnic democracy. But I think the reasons are, one, that English is the main language here, so Americans have easier access to news reports, and, two, Britain, being in Western Europe, has a lot of overlap with the U.S. in terms of when people are on the internet, and then there’s a bit of an overlap with India as well. But, mainly, it is just easy for far-right actors in the U.S. to project these things onto a country that your main audience is not as familiar with, because you can massively distort things.

是的,而且儘管發生了當前這些事件,英國仍是一個相當成功的多族裔民主國家。但我認為原因在於,第一,英語是這裡的主要語言,所以美國人更容易取得新聞報導;第二,英國地處西歐,人們上網的時間與美國有大量重疊,然後與印度也有些重疊。但最主要的是,美國的極右翼行動者很容易把這些事情投射到一個你的主要受眾不太熟悉的國家,因為你可以極大地扭曲事實。

Do you think even liberal élites in the U.K. have, in many cases, stopped celebrating what you describe as a successful multi-ethnic democracy?

你是否認為,即便是英國的自由派菁英,在許多情況下,也已不再頌揚你所描述的那個成功的多族裔民主國家了?

Yeah, I think that is fair. In terms of the traditional governing élites, there’s still a lot of support for ethnic and social diversity, and a rhetorical commitment to anti-racism when those things are easy to defend. As soon as they’ve come under pressure, the élites have kind of just backed away from it as much as possible. I think it’s partly fear-based. Labour, since they took power in 2024, have oscillated between panicked immigration-policy proposals in response to the uptick in support for Reform U.K., or just this kind of rabbit-in-the-headlights paralysis. But I think it’s also due to some longer-term factors. There has been, really since the two-thousands, from the traditional right-wing press and other sources, a persistent attack on “multiculturalism.” Stephen Lawrence was a black teen-ager who was murdered by a gang of white racists in 1993. His death was not properly investigated by the police at the time. And some years later, in 1999, an official inquiry produced a report in which it said that institutional racism within the Metropolitan Police was partly responsible for his killers not being brought to justice. And that prompted a kind of reckoning within the British state about policing and racial discrimination and so on. But there was also a backlash from the right, which began almost immediately, and was based on this idea that if you apply anti-racist measures to state functions like policing, you will paralyze them, because police officers will be scared to be called racist, and they won’t enforce the law properly, and so on. And that’s something that the right-wing press has kind of banged on about for years and years. And for a long time the political center largely ignored it, but as politics has become more unstable, and with the rise of right-wing populism here, that narrative has really taken hold, to the extent that I think the people at the top of the Labour Party, and people running our large political and cultural institutions are now scared to push back against it, because either they’re worried about the backlash, or they feel like they’ve lost the argument.

是的,我認為這麼說很公允。就傳統的統治菁英而言,他們仍然相當支持族群與社會多樣性,並且在這些事情容易捍衛時,口頭上承諾反對種族主義。然而,一旦他們受到壓力,這些菁英就會盡可能地退縮。我認為這部分出於恐懼。工黨自2024年執政以來,一直在兩種狀態間搖擺:一是為了回應英國改革黨支持率上升,而提出驚慌失措的移民政策方案;另一種則是像被車燈照到的兔子那般,陷入動彈不得的癱瘓狀態。但我認為這也歸因於一些更長期的因素。自兩千年以來,其實一直存在著來自傳統右翼媒體和其他來源對「多元文化主義」的持續攻擊。史蒂芬·勞倫斯(Stephen Lawrence)是一名黑人青少年,1993年被一夥白人種族主義者殺害。當時警方並未妥善調查他的死因。幾年後,在1999年,一份官方調查報告指出,倫敦警察廳內部的制度性種族主義,是導致兇手未能被繩之以法的部分原因。這引發了英國政府內部對警務及種族歧視等問題的一番反省。但右翼的反彈也幾乎立刻開始,其基礎是這樣一種觀念:如果你將反種族主義措施應用於警務等國家職能,就會使之癱瘓,因為警察會害怕被稱為種族主義者,從而無法正常執法,等等。右翼媒體多年來一直在大肆宣揚這種論調。長期以來,政治中間派基本上忽視了它,但隨著政治變得更加不穩定,加上右翼民粹主義在此地的興起,這種敘事真正站穩了腳跟,以至於我認為工黨高層,以及我們大型政治和文化機構的掌管者,現在都不敢反駁它,因為他們要麼擔心引發強烈反彈,要麼覺得自己已經在這場論爭中落敗了。

The United States is now living through the second term of an anti-immigrant, far-right leader. The United Kingdom has not had that happen. Nigel Farage, if he wins in the next election, will probably pursue similar immigration policies to Trump. But what Trump has done, in addition to his horrific policies, is create space in the culture for people to push back, and for people to say this has gone too far. You’ve seen in both Trump terms that the public’s support for immigration has actually gone up in opinion polls. In the U.K., you haven’t had this backlash to the backlash yet.

美國現在正經歷一位反移民的極右翼領袖的第二任期。英國尚未發生這種情況。奈傑爾·法拉吉(Nigel Farage)若在下屆選舉中獲勝,很可能會推行類似川普的移民政策。但川普所做的,除了那些駭人聽聞的政策外,還在文化上創造了空間,讓人們可以反擊,可以說這一切已經太過分了。你在川普的兩個任期內都看到,民意調查中公眾對移民的支持度實際上有所上升。在英國,你還沒有看到這種對反彈的反彈。

I would say there has been a lot of pushback, but it hasn’t come from the top. That’s the key thing. After murders in Southport, in 2024, by a Black British citizen, there was a wave of racist rioting. And there was a real lack of leadership from the government. This was not long after Labour had been elected, and they displayed exactly that kind of rabbit-in-the-headlights paralysis that I mentioned earlier.

我會說,反擊一直都有,但並非來自上層。這是關鍵所在。2024年,一名英國黑人公民在南港(Southport)犯下謀殺案後,爆發了一波種族主義騷亂。當時政府嚴重缺乏領導力。那時工黨剛當選不久,他們表現出的正是我之前提到的那種「被車燈照到的兔子」般的癱瘓狀態。

But what actually happened was that much larger numbers of people came out en masse to demonstrate and show their opposition to the racist rioting and the targeting of refugees and asylum seekers and mosques, and so on. I think this is a common pattern where people in power underestimate the people they’re there to represent. The most striking detail out of that period was that, the day after very, very large protests in London and elsewhere against the racist violence, the Daily Mail, Britain’s leading right-wing newspaper, had a huge picture of the demonstrations on its front page, and a very, very laudatory headline around it. And what struck me was that many of the people in that photo would have been the kind of people the Mail, in other contexts, would have condemned as urban élites. And just within twenty-four hours, there was this turnaround when suddenly bits of the establishment were forced into celebrating this grassroots anti-racism. Britain’s political and media class have frequently underestimated the extent to which people oppose far-right politics in this country and overplayed the size and influence of those who do—either because they are scared or because it suits their political agenda.

但實際發生的情況是,數量遠為龐大的人群集結起來,示威並表達他們對種族主義騷亂、針對難民和尋求庇護者及清真寺等目標的反對。我認為這是一種常見模式:掌權者低估了他們本應代表的人民。那段時期最引人注目的細節是,在倫敦等地發生了大規模反對種族主義暴力的抗議活動後的第二天,英國主要的右翼報紙《每日郵報》(Daily Mail),在頭版刊登了一幅巨大的示威照片,並配上了一個非常、非常讚揚的標題。令我印象深刻的是,那張照片中的許多人,放在其他情境下,正是《每日郵報》會譴責為「城市菁英」的那類人。就在短短二十四小時內,出現了這樣的轉變,部分建制派突然被迫去讚頌這種草根的反種族主義。英國的政治和媒體階層經常低估了這個國家人民反對極右翼政治的程度,同時又誇大了那些支持極右翼的人的規模和影響力——這要麼是因為他們害怕,要麼是因為這符合他們的政治議程。

Is it fair to say that you view much of the far-right backlash against multiculturalism as élite-driven? Your book definitely argues that to a degree.

你認為極右翼對多元文化主義的反彈,在很大程度上是由菁英驅動的,這麼說公允嗎?你的書確實在一定程度上論證了這點。

It’s both. I would say that a minority of noisy bullies have been allowed to intimidate other people into silence, and what’s allowed them to do that is the failure of élites to challenge it, and to back up the rest of us who are trying to challenge it. So, let’s take the strongest part of this, since you mentioned Nigel Farage. I’m not denying that Reform U.K. has got significant popular support at the moment. They are leading the polls. But that’s in a political landscape where our traditional two-party system that we’ve been used to having for decades has fragmented into five or six parties, depending on where you are in the country. In the local elections in May, Reform received around twenty-seven per cent of the vote. So they’re not commanding anywhere near a majority of support, and even when it’s a plurality, it’s a pretty small one. But I think large parts of our political class, and large parts of the media, have responded to their growth as if they are the new voice of the people, and we have to listen to what they say, and accept it.

兩者皆有。我會說,一小撮吵鬧的霸凌者被允許去恐嚇其他人,使他們沉默,而之所以能如此,是因為菁英們未能挑戰這種行為,也未能支持我們這些試圖挑戰它的人。那麼,就拿這其中最強的部分來說,既然你提到了奈傑爾·法拉吉。我不否認英國改革黨目前獲得了顯著的民意支持。他們在民調中領先。但這是在一個政治格局中,我們習慣了幾十年的傳統兩黨制已分裂成五六個政黨,取決於你在國家的哪個地區。在五月的地方選舉中,改革黨獲得了大約百分之二十七的選票。所以,他們遠未掌握多數支持,即使算是一個相對多數,這個多數也相當微弱。但我認為,我們政治階層的很大一部分,以及媒體的很大一部分,對他們崛起的反應,就好像他們是人民的新聲音,我們必須傾聽他們所說的,並接受它。

In some cases, parts of the media actually prepare the ground for the far right. The stigmatization of asylum seekers in the U.K. has been primarily carried out by the right-wing press, going back a very long time. So, entrepreneurial, far-right politicians who arrive on the scene—what they’re able to do is to take what is already there in the minds of the public, and then present a more radical version of that, or propose more radical responses to the problems the press has already created. So it is a symbiosis. There’ll be bits of the media, the right-wing press, for instance, who will have already put in some hard work stigmatizing asylum seekers or other groups of immigrants. You then get a surge of far-right activity, and then that same right-wing press that helped get us there will say, “Look, we don’t want to let these people in, so you really must listen to us and do what we say on this issue.”

在某些情況下,部分媒體實際上為極右翼鋪平了道路。英國對尋求庇護者的污名化,長期以來主要由右翼媒體所執行。因此,那些後來出現的、善於投機的極右翼政客——他們所能做的,就是擷取公眾心中已有的觀念,然後呈現出一個更激進的版本,或是針對媒體已製造出的問題,提出更激進的應對方案。所以這是一種共生關係。會有部分媒體,例如右翼媒體,已經在污名化尋求庇護者或其他移民群體方面下了不少功夫。然後你會看到一波極右翼活動的激增,接著,正是那些當初推波助瀾的右翼媒體會說:「看吧,我們不想讓這些人進來,所以你們真的必須聽我們的,在這個問題上照我們說的做。」

Meaning, what?

什么意思?

For a long time, the argument you would get from the mainstream right was that we need tougher policies applied to asylum seekers and refugees, otherwise the far right will come in with much worse solutions, and none of us want that, do we? One of the most controversial issues around immigration in the last few years, and one that’s become a big campaign issue for the far right, and one that a lot of mainstream politics has also been exercised about, is the use of hotels to house people seeking asylum. Often, they are there for long periods and are essentially idle. Then, if somebody living in a hotel commits a crime, that kicks off big disturbances and reactions, and so on.

長期以來,你會從主流右翼那裡聽到一種論調:我們需要對尋求庇護者和難民實施更嚴厲的政策,否則極右翼就會帶著更糟糕的解決方案登場,而我們都不希望那樣,對吧?過去幾年,圍繞移民問題最具爭議的議題之一,也是極右翼的一大競選議題,以及許多主流政治也為之焦慮的,就是利用旅館來安置尋求庇護者。他們常常在那裡長時間滯留,基本上無所事事。然後,如果某個住在旅館的人犯了罪,就會引發大規模騷亂和反應,等等。

Well, one of the reasons why asylum seekers are stuck in this state of limbo for so long is because they’re banned from taking up work while they’re waiting for their asylum claims to be processed. And the decision to ban them from taking up work was made by the government of Tony Blair, in response to a moral panic about asylum seekers taking people’s jobs which had been whipped up by the Daily Mail and other newspapers.

然而,尋求庇護者之所以長期被困在這種懸而未決的狀態中,原因之一是他們在等待庇護申請處理期間,被禁止工作。而禁止他們工作的決定,是托尼·布萊爾(Tony Blair)政府做出的,為的是回應一場由《每日郵報》和其他報紙煽動起來的、關於尋求庇護者搶走人們飯碗的道德恐慌。

Enoch Powell, the far-right British politician, gave his notorious, racist “Rivers of Blood” speech in 1968. It was enormously popular, and polls showed that, perhaps, he could have been Prime Minister, but he was punished for it by his colleagues in the Conservative Party. And then, with Brexit, the vast majority of élites were against it. But Brexit was voted on, and got fifty-two per cent in a referendum. So, I hear everything you’re saying, but I also think that, while it is easy to blame élites, these views are held by lots of people, and even if they are obviously not innate, they can be hard for people to shake.

英國極右翼政客伊諾克·鮑威爾(Enoch Powell)在1968年發表了他那篇臭名昭著、充滿種族主義的「血河」演說。那篇演說極受歡迎,民調顯示他也許本可以成為首相,但他因此遭到了保守黨同僚的懲罰。然後,到了脫歐,絕大多數菁英都反對它。但脫歐被付諸公投,並獲得了百分之五十二的支持率。所以,我聽懂了你所說的一切,但我也認為,雖然責怪菁英很容易,但這些觀點確實為許多人所持有,而且即使它們顯然不是天生的,人們也很難擺脫。

I think that’s broadly correct. It is a sort of push-and-pull situation, you know. There is a chunk of the British population who’ve got fairly socially conservative attitudes on a range of things, including immigration. That’s not new. What changes, though, is its salience, politically, and the kind of political project that is formed out of those attitudes. And what we’ve really seen in Britain, precipitated by both the 2008 financial crisis and its aftermath, and the particularly severe form of austerity that was applied in Britain by the coalition government of David Cameron and Nick Clegg, and then followed by the institutional paralysis and polarization that followed Brexit, is the fragmentation of the political system, and a sort of institutional meltdown right at the top, which has opened the space for new political entrepreneurs to arrive on the scene and start building new things out of people’s views and attitudes and hopes and fears, and so on.

我認為這大致上是正確的。這是一種推拉互動的局面,你知道。英國人口中有一部分人在一系列問題上持有相當社會保守主義的態度,包括移民問題。這並不新鮮。然而,改變的是它在政治上的顯著性,以及圍繞這些態度所形成的政治計劃。我們在英國真正看到的,是由2008年金融危機及其餘波,以及大衛·卡麥隆(David Cameron)和尼克·克萊格(Nick Clegg)聯合政府實施的、特別嚴厲的緊縮政策所共同促成,隨後又經歷了脫歐帶來的制度癱瘓和兩極分化,最終導致了政治體系的碎片化,以及一種頂層的制度性崩潰。這為新的政治創業者登場,並開始利用人們的觀點、態度、希望與恐懼等來構建新事物,開闢了空間。

Enoch Powell was expelled from the Conservative Party Shadow Cabinet after making his “Rivers of Blood” speech in 1968. But what followed was a decade of a rising far-right movement outside of the mainstream in the form of the National Front, and quite a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment and racism, both on the grassroots and institutional level. The ultimate outcome, then, was that, by the end of the seventies, Margaret Thatcher had been able to bring the various discontents mixed up in that into a kind of big-tent project within a mainstream center-right party.

伊諾克·鮑威爾在1968年發表「血河」演說後,被逐出保守黨影子內閣。但隨之而來的,是主流之外極右翼運動的十年高漲,以「民族陣線」(National Front)的形式出現,以及相當多的反移民情緒和種族主義,無論在草根層面還是制度層面。最終的結果是,到了七十年代末,瑪格麗特·柴契爾(Margaret Thatcher)得以將混雜其中的各種不滿,納入一個主流中右翼政黨內部的大帳篷計劃。

At other points in our history, the Labour Party has managed to do similar. The Labour Party, historically, was able to appeal to both relatively socially conservative voters and socially liberal voters, and yet offer something that they could both buy into. What’s really changed in the last decade is the ability of these traditional big-tent political structures to keep it all on board, and so that means that parts of what would have been a traditional coalition of voters are spinning off and are being taken up by other political actors elsewhere. You know, that’s not all going to the right. We’ve had the rise of the Green Party as what its recently elected leader, Zack Polanski, describes as an eco-populist party. The Financial Times political columnist Stephen Bush described it quite well. If you look at who’s voting for Reform and who’s voting for the Greens at the moment, they tend to be people who are suffering most from, or most discontented with, inflation, poor economic prospects, frustration with their wages, their job conditions, and so on, whereas better-off people have tended to stick with Labour and the Conservatives. And the way Stephen Bush put it was that it starts with frustration at the cost of living, and then it’s your other values that determine whether you go to the left or the right.

在我們歷史的其他節點,工黨也曾成功做到類似的事情。工黨在歷史上能夠同時吸引相對社會保守的選民和社會自由的選民,並提供一個他們都能接受的方案。過去十年真正改變的,是這些傳統的大帳篷政治結構維繫這一切的能力,這意味著原本屬於傳統選民聯盟的部分正在脫離,並被其他地方的政治行動者所吸納。你知道,這並非全都流向右翼。我們見證了綠黨的崛起,其新當選的領袖扎克·波蘭斯基(Zack Polanski)將其描述為一個生態民粹主義政黨。《金融時報》政治專欄作家史蒂芬·布希(Stephen Bush)描述得相當好。如果你看看目前哪些人投票給改革黨,哪些人投票給綠黨,他們往往是那些受通貨膨脹、糟糕的經濟前景、對工資和工作條件感到沮喪等問題影響最深、或最為不滿的人,而較富裕的人則傾向於繼續支持工黨和保守黨。史蒂芬·布希的說法是,這始於對生活成本的沮喪,然後是你的其他價值觀決定了你走向左翼還是右翼。

In terms of the distinction between political élites and the people at large, I think you have to see that neither side is inert. They shape each other. Political movements don’t just grow out of the ground. They need to be brought together, and certain ideas need to be vocalized and put together in a narrative. And that comes from leaders and prominent figures, politically, but the people who do that are also responding to what they think people might want, or shifts in society that they can observe, and so on. So it’s neither one nor the other, and for me, what’s important is to recognize how those bits fit together and relate. ♦

就政治菁英與普羅大眾之間的區別而言,我認為你必須看到,雙方都不是靜止不動的。他們互相塑造。政治運動不會憑空從地裡長出來。它們需要被匯聚起來,某些觀念需要被大聲說出,並整合成一套敘事。這來自政治上的領袖和顯要人物,但做這些事的人也是在回應他們認為人民可能想要的東西,或是他們能觀察到的社會變遷,等等。所以,這既非此亦非彼,對我來說,重要的是認識到這些部分是如何組合在一起並相互關聯的。 ♦

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